Curse

FrAnt1c² · Aug 18, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

H/H'ed 4 last missions I needed for protector title in NF yesterday evening, no problems. Did Minister cho's on HM this morning and vanquished an area on canthan nooby isle. Everything went smooth 'n easy.
Olias, master of whispers and Livia are pro's at what they do...

As far as the MM heroes are concerned, just flag them into the battle if they dont follow, otherwise they just keep on using jagged bones and stuff like that on their heroes. Not bringing blood of the master speeds things up aswell, keeps him from saccing himself to near death too if you happen to be running two minion masters...

upier · Aug 18, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Won't somebody please think of poor old Zunny!??!

We were just cleaning the pink mess that the Afflicted made and then Zunny decides to run off through half the map (just follow the pink line) without ANY kind of reason.
Does this mean ALL NPCs act this way?
Even the ones we need to protect?
I don't remember Zunny being this mental before ...

elk · Aug 18, 2008, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

The melee Henchmen haven't been changed significantly with the last build. They made the casters a lot more cautious, so it looks like the melee Henchmen are more aggressive than they actually are.

Additionally, the aggro range used to be based upon weapon type, so previously the spellcasters had a wider range than melee Henchmen. With the last build, they equalized the melee range, so that spellcasters and melee fighters have the same aggro range.

At this point it would be appreciated if you could possibly ask for some further review and testing.

Like many others in this thread, I've found the melee characters to be jumping into combat well outside of the aggro bubble. I been plodding away working at the vanquishing/ cartographer titles and often take the famed "Sabway". I usually fill the last few spots with another Monk, 2 Melee hench and another toon applicable to the area I'm covering. In many cases I've had the melee toons run off to aggro foes well outside of an acceptable range (no targets called either) followed by the Monk running off to use a rez (usually touch range). It's at a point where I've begun to revise the Hench to ranged; which I've found isn't as effective as the melee were prior to the update.

Granted I haven't run any mods to test/validate it, but it seems similar to a spirit range for the aggro bubble (or something similar to a "spotter" in NF). If you could follow up on our behalf and provide some further feedback, that would be fantastic.

elk

Numa Pompilius · Aug 18, 2008, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Guys, please don't overstate the problem and don't confuse the issue.

There's two separate issues:

1) Intermittent Banzai-aggro, mainly by melee heroes and hench, where they attack mobs which the human is not currently fighting, and which may be far outside aggro range, ignoring aggressivity setting and flags. Devona may do it more frequently than others, but I've had melee heroes do it too.
It doesn't happen all the time, or even all that often really, but it DOES happen, and it IS hugely annoying.
This behaviour isn't new, it's been reported for many months, but it's clearly a lot more common now after the update, and prior to the update I never saw it unless I was in combat and the shortest route to the enemy was blocked. After the update they may take off at any time.

2) Caster weirdness. Mainly that minionbombers stop outside aggro-range and spend an eternity trying to put Death Nova on all his minions, and that monks sometimes wait for a long time before healing (apparently to save energy, but give a monk a vampiric weapon and signet of healing and watch hilarity ensue), and that casters with any PBAoE damage spells have a tendency to run into melee to use their PBAoE spells, and stay there.
I frankly haven't noticed this get either better or worse after the update.

The leeeeroying got worse after the update, and needs to be fixed. The caster weirdness may or may not have gotten worse after the update, I really can't tell.

Stolen Souls · Aug 18, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

Guys, please don't overstate the problem and don't confuse the issue.

There's two separate issues:

1) Intermittent Banzai-aggro, mainly by melee heroes and hench, where they attack mobs which the human is not currently fighting, and which may be far outside aggro range, ignoring aggressivity setting and flags. Devona may do it more frequently than others, but I've had melee heroes do it too.
It doesn't happen all the time, or even all that often really, but it DOES happen, and it IS hugely annoying.
This behaviour isn't new, it's been reported for many months, but it's clearly a lot more common now after the update, and prior to the update I never saw it unless I was in combat and the shortest route to the enemy was blocked. After the update they may take off at any time.

2) Caster weirdness. Mainly that minionbombers stop outside aggro-range and spend an eternity trying to put Death Nova on all his minions, and that monks sometimes wait for a long time before healing (apparently to save energy, but give a monk a vampiric weapon and signet of healing and watch hilarity ensue), and that casters with any PBAoE damage spells have a tendency to run into melee to use their PBAoE spells, and stay there.
I frankly haven't noticed this get either better or worse after the update.

The leeeeroying got worse after the update, and needs to be fixed. The caster weirdness may or may not have gotten worse after the update, I really can't tell.

Yes, exactly. But add to the caster wierdness...casters refusing to attack a called target. Before the update, you could stand just outside of aggro and call a target...the casters proceeded to attack the target. They often don't anymore...they sometimes just stand there doing nothing, requiring you to draw aggro yourself (sucks if you're a monk), or flag them into the mob..

Draikin · Aug 18, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

Yes, exactly. But add to the caster wierdness...casters refusing to attack a called target. Before the update, you could stand just outside of aggro and call a target...the casters proceeded to attack the target. They often don't anymore...they sometimes just stand there doing nothing, requiring you to draw aggro yourself (sucks if you're a monk), or flag them into the mob..

This particular behavior is definitely part of the bugfix that equalized aggro range on hero/henchmen regardless of the weapon they're wielding. Before the update the "Defend" setting on casters wasn't the same as "Defend" on melee characters, and that was fixed so that casters now have the same aggro range as melee characters. In other words casters are now less aggressive than before. The reason they're not attacking your called target is because the target is beyond 1.5 times the normal aggro range. Before the update, casters would have rushed in beyond that range. Perhaps the current defensive range is too defensive now for most people or they just didn't get used to the "correct" behavior yet, I'm not sure.

Abedeus · Aug 18, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

casters with any PBAoE damage spells have a tendency to run into melee to use their PBAoE spells, and stay there.
I frankly haven't noticed this get either better or worse after the update.

What's funny, Paragon's [Spear Swipe] is godly now. Dunno if it was always like that, but heroes now run up to a CASTER (O_O), Spear Swipe him and run back to spear range. Now THAT'S a good AI. The only reason I don't run triple paragon is because there are only 2 paragon heroes and my paragon char is boring to play. Because those heroes and necro heroes are godly.

Melee heroes and casters suck now.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 18, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Yeah i have realized that when farming with a hero bonder, the hero tends to run in the opposite direction that you are for no reason whatsoever. This has been happening even before the most recently hero AI updates.

ADDED:

Before the updates there heros and henches acted alot better. I had alot few issues before they threw in all these AI changes than I do now. Seems heros have gone pyzophrenic because while one persons characters may be rushing in, others sit and do nothing (like mine) it is really getting on my nerv and making it impossible to h/h certain dungeons.... I don't have the time to waste looking for real people, if i want to get something done i want to be able to do it whether or not people are forming groups for it. The AI changes are preventing me even more now from achieving these....

Tyla · Aug 18, 2008, 08:37 PM // 20:37

I recently 2 human / 6 hero vanquished an area with a guildie, and didn't notice any drastic changes myself. As for the complaints, though, some people must have AI screwups hard at the moment in time.

-Makai- · Aug 18, 2008, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Won't somebody please think of poor old Zunny!??!

We were just cleaning the pink mess that the Afflicted made and then Zunny decides to run off through half the map (just follow the pink line) without ANY kind of reason.
Does this mean ALL NPCs act this way?
Even the ones we need to protect?
I don't remember Zunny being this mental before ...

upier's got a point here. I believe other NPCs are suffering from the same crippling disease. Here's a few screenshots I took yesterday:

After slaying Argo, this elementalist ran very far away:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ichi/gw440.jpg

I felt bad for killing Exuro, as apparently he has a really good heart; he didn't once try to attack anyone! Perhaps we could throw him in a claymation special called "Exuro the Friendliest Titan!":

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ichi/gw444.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ichi/gw445.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ichi/gw446.jpg

The writing's on the wall, Anet...the writing is on the go red engine'ing wall.

Another point of interest I've noted (I forgot to take a screen) is that heroes/hench no longer defend. Take a group into an area with enemy Ranger spirits and wait until the group leaves. Notice how your team is hellbent on destroying the spirit...something which never happened before unless they were set to attack.

Tender Wolf · Aug 18, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yol

Cynics amongst us might speculate that the devs intentionally tweaked the h/h combat aggro range for the worse so that they become less appealing than using other players on your team...

Ugh, I'd take heroes and henchies over people any day. All the PUG's I get (even guildies and allies) are so noobish, they can't even follow a target. I constantly say "don't do this/that" and they do it anyway. I have far more luck with heroes and henchies.

But I haven't played since the update so I couldn't tell you how they're acting.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 18, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

My heros seem to just refuse to do anything when they are flagged, i just dont get it. Flagged + set to guard = avoid to heros i guess... even though enemies are in range for spells to reach them and I am calling targets.. driivng me nuts

*sends a glaring look at Anet* "put the hero AI back to what it was!"

Age · Aug 18, 2008, 10:27 PM // 22:27

I would like to see the melee heros and henchies back the way they were as they just keep going after things I don't target then bring it over to the castors. /revert

The Little Viking · Aug 18, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

My koss will no longer attack even when set to attack and am in the middle of battle, and devona runs off the map. Not just the agro circle...off the map and dies. i leave her there now just because I can.

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 18, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Little Viking

My koss will no longer attack even when set to attack and am in the middle of battle, and devona runs off the map. Not just the agro circle...off the map and dies. i leave her there now just because I can.

Well if she's killing herself than she deserves to be left all alone lol

hellcast · Aug 19, 2008, 02:18 AM // 02:18

They could at least put kilroys shout in all melee H/H since they have the same AI :P

Now seriously, I hope Anet looks into this soon, maybe before next months update *crosses fingers and hopes for it*

Kushiels_Scion · Aug 19, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Okay i've had it! I can't even get through Destructions Depths on hard mode... because on the 2nd level they REFUSE to heal me when flagged. They are PLENTY close enough to cast spells on me and the enemies that are grouped on me but they refuse to do a damn thing... This is really getting on my last nerv and Anet needs take back all the new AI changes they added and then SLOWLY change it. that way its easier to tell wha tis the problem...

BAH!

Lovely heros running into agro when flagged while healers delay healing until after someone is dead.. what fun:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...lorn/gw024.jpg

gahhrf

cellardweller · Aug 19, 2008, 12:20 PM // 12:20

I seem to be having the exact opposite problem - casters set to defense who will not engage enemies that are attacking the party.

In this shot you can see the party taking on a group of margonites. The two healers are operating normally, but olias who doesn't have any heals on his bar is sitting back and watching.

And just to show that its not a case of him being slow off the mark, this is the same combat 15 seconds later

pumpkin pie · Aug 19, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

well, this definitely is strange,

Gwen, well in hardmode, the ranger in thannakai temple interrupt very frequently so i flag both the caster heros behind the wall but look at where Gwen had die while everyone else is behind the wall safely. see where her flags is and where her corpse is....

actually now that I look at the picture again, only my character, togo and olias are behind the walls and the rest are mobbing the door way lol

no problem with healing thou. just that they like to randomly ran into a mob for no obvious reason.

what happen prior to gwen mobbing.

1) ran to door way, I pull the temple guardian
2) gotten rid of the Temple Guardian
3) flag all h/h (triangle flag with no markings)
4) flag Gwen (flag number 1 see that green flag with 1 on it beside Olias.
5) Flag Olias (when i see Olias running towards where he is, Gwens health bar is lowering very fast.
*saw healer hench ran after Gwen, her health bar raise to half
6) Flag Jora to pull,
7) Gwen Dies.

lol

Koudelka · Aug 19, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

ArenaNet. Heroes are still a lot more pleasant than PUGs, they don't discriminate, and they aren't retarded. And they're still far better at the game than the average PUG player.

You'll need to make them run around randomly on the entire map, spontaneously map out, aggro everything, change their bars while zoning, make them spew poorly written insults, have random and shoddily drawn genitalia appear on the compass, and disable them for Ritualists, Mesmers, Assassins, and Paragons before they're down to the PUG level. At which point I guess you'd be cutting off around 70% of GW2 potential sales.

Zahr, your posts have been much too extreme lately! Your campaign to remove hero cap has nothing to do with the h/h AI problems we've been having lately.

Quote:

At which point I guess you'd be cutting off around 70% of GW2 potential sales.

Lol.

On topic: I've noticed nothing disturbed with caster AI. However, the update did say that rits would use spirits out of battle, but Xandra doesn't. I don't mind however, as I'd prefer to tell her when we're fighting, not the other way around.